Artists and critics have a famously contentious relationship. It can seem, at least, that the discipline of critiquing stands at odds  to the discipline of creating it. Yet, I can’t think of really any professional artist who doesn’t hold some very pointed opinions about the work they consume (as well as their own. And I’ve yet to meet a professional critic whose attention to an art form didn’t at least begin in a sincere admiration for… if not love for… that same art form.

My guest on this episode is poet and cultural critic Hanif Abdurraqib. In our brief conversation, I think you’ll find a vision of art, pop culture, industry and creativity in which there aren’t hard lines between diagnosis or analysis and a long, loving gaze and what human hands have made.

Our conversation actually begins with him reflecting on a grammy moment in which Adele used time during her acceptance speech to suggest that Beyonce was perhaps, more deserving of the award.

Check it out.